萬物皆是法‧有緣譯佛法；人間皆有生‧同體為眾生
關於女性：佛教的觀點─與傑尊奇美的訪談
Jetsün Kushok Chimey Luding
傑尊姑秀奇美祿頂
From View magazine, issue number 9
摘自View magazine第九卷
Modern women may have gained much equality and independence in social, political and economic terms, but is a woman’s spiritual potential as great as a man’s? We asked Jetsun Chimey to explain the Buddhist view.
現代女性在社會、政治和經濟上也許已得到相當的平等與獨立，但相較於男性，女性的修行潛能是否也一樣呢？我們請到傑尊奇美從佛教的觀點來說明。
Women: a Buddhist view
女性：佛教的觀點
Your visit to England this year [1995] marks the first time a woman master in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition has ever taught here. Why are there so few women teachers?
您在今年 [1995年] 訪問英國，乃是藏傳佛教傳承中首度有女性上師於此教導 [佛法]。何以女性上師如此稀少呢？
I think the two primary reasons are karmic and cultural. Karma is a factor in deciding gender, and then the differences in the way men and women live–their different roles–are the products of certain kinds of karma. On the cultural side, in Asia there were more men who wished to put their effort into spiritual practice than there were women, and that is why there were fewer nuns than monks. But other than this, there are no reasons that I am aware of. Certainly there are no arguments for this in the teachings themselves.
我認為業力與文化是兩個主因。業力是決定性別的因素之一，而男性與女性不同的生活方式──包括他們不同的角色──也是某種業力的產物。就文化層面來說，在亞洲，有更多男性比女性希望致力於修行，因此尼眾會少於僧眾。但除此之外，我不認為還有其他原因。教法本身對於［女性能否成為上師］這件事肯定並無任何爭議。
Could you explain the karma of being born a woman?
可以解釋一下生為女性的業力為何嗎？
I really don’t know what the karmic causes are to be reborn as a woman; I have never seen any explanation of the karma of being born a woman in the scriptures. But personally I think individuals have a special karmic connection to their first life of spiritual practice, so if a person was a woman in their first life of practice, they might choose to take rebirth as a woman.
我其實不清楚是哪些業力導致投生為女性；我從未在經文中看到任何關於業力導致生為女性的解釋。但我個人認為，每個人都與自己開始修行的那一世有著特殊的業力連結，所以如果在開始修行的那一世身為女性，就可能選擇投生為女性。
I know there are prayers in which we pray not to be reborn as a woman but as a man. Most of these were written at a time when the life of a woman was very hard, and I think that is the reason people prayed for rebirth as a man.
我知道有些祈願文提到，希望自己不要投生為女性，而是男性。這些祈願文多半撰寫於女性生活非常艱辛的時代，我認為那就是人們祈願能投生為男性的原因。
In terms of the spiritual path and the ability to attain enlightenment, is being a woman an inferior birth? I believe that the teachings of the Theravada tradition say that it is more difficult for a woman to attain enlightenment than for a man...
就修行之道與獲得證悟的能力而言，女性是否屬於較劣的投生？我相信上座部傳承的教導中提及: 相較於男性，女性較難獲得證悟。
Yes, and in the Mahayana too, but the Vajrayana doesn’t say that.
是的，大乘佛教亦有此說，但金剛乘並不這麼認為。
Why is it more difficult according to Theravada and Mahayana?
Women are said to have more desires, all sorts of wild thoughts, and are also very prone to doubt. Buddha said that doubts and desire are unhelpful for religious practice, and in the Theravada and Mahayana teachings, he pointed to them as obstacles.
據說女性有較多的慾望、各種狂野的想法，也非常容易起疑。佛陀曾表示：懷疑與慾望對於宗教修持並無助益，而在上座部佛教和大乘佛教的教導中，佛陀則指出上述皆屬障礙。
So women are at a disadvantage on the spiritual path because they have so many emotions, and emotions are seen as defilements?
所以女性在修行之道上處於劣勢，就因為她們有太多被視為染污的情緒？
That’s right.
的確如此。
Yet in the Vajrayana almost the opposite is true, and women are seen as a symbol of wisdom.
但在金剛乘卻幾乎相反，女性被視為智慧的象徵。
Fundamentally, men and women are the same–they are both human beings. However the masters have found that there is a difference between their minds. Women have very sharp minds; they are actually sharper than men, which is why in the Vajrayana, the path which works directly with the mind, women represent wisdom and men represent method. Often a woman will have thought through an idea many times, long before the idea has even struck a man. This is something I have noticed when comparing my husband and myself.
基本上，男性與女性是一樣的。他們都是人類。然而，上師們發現，兩者在心智上有所差異。女性的心智非常敏銳，且其實比男性還要敏銳，這就是為什麼直接於心下功夫的金剛乘認為，女性代表智慧而男性代表方便。當男性突然想到某個想法時，女性往往早在先前就對這個想法思考過很多遍了。這是我拿自己與先生比較後所注意到的。
In the Theravada and Mahayana, on the other hand, there are many examples where women are shown to be bad. This view is also sometimes reflected within the culture. In India, for example, women have a lower status than men. As most of Buddha’s disciples were male, he used the example of beautiful women to demonstrate impermanence. Monks were trained to consider that a woman’s beauty is only skin deep, and however beautiful she may be when she is young, one day she will grow old and ugly. This is a method for reducing sexual desire, and was taught by Buddha because he felt that sexual desire was not helpful for spiritual practice.
另一方面，在上座部佛教和大乘佛教中，有許多貶抑女性的例子。這個見解有時亦反映了文化。舉例來說，在印度，女性地位較男性還低。由於佛陀弟子多數為男性，祂便用貌美的女性來解說無常。僧人們被訓練要視女性之美僅是膚淺的，無論她如何年輕貌美而終將有老醜的一天。這是降低性慾的一種方式，而佛陀之所以如此傳授，是因為祂認為性慾對於修行並沒有幫助。
He also taught another method, called ‘sealing the doors of the senses’, in which the beautiful woman’s body is skinned, mentally, and monks consider how ugly and repulsive it is inside as they ‘look’ at the pus, blood, intestines and so on. Using these examples, Hinayana and Mahayana monks who had taken the vow to lead a life of renunciation, would purify their minds.
佛陀亦教導另一種稱為「封閉根門」的方法，也就是要僧人們在心意上將美麗女性身體的皮膚剝開，藉此「見到」其中的膿、血、腸等而視之為多麼醜陋與令人厭惡。運用這些例子，受出家戒的上座部佛教與大乘佛教僧人便得以淨化自心。
The point here is not that women themselves are ugly and impure—if Buddha were to teach a group of nuns, he would use the same example in reverse and tell them to scan the body of the man they desired. Men and women are both human, they both come from the mother’s womb, there is no difference between them. This is my view, it is not something I’ve been told. Buddha taught all sentient beings. There is nothing in the scriptures to tell us that he taught men rather than women.
這裡的重點並不在於女性本身是醜陋與不淨，如果佛陀要教導的是一群尼眾，祂會用同樣的例子但相反的性別，而告訴她們去細看其所渴望的男性身體。男性和女性都是人類，都來自母胎，他們之間並沒有區別。這是我的見解，而非有人對我所說的。佛陀教導的對象是一切有情眾生。經典中並無記載祂只教導男性而不教導女性。
So to summarise, from the Theravada and Mahayana points of view, both men and women are basically the same–they have emotional and intellectual defilements which need to be purified–and the difference between them is one of degree; but from the perspective of the Vajrayana, there is a subtle difference between the minds.
所以總括來說，根據上座部佛教與大乘佛教的觀點，男性與女性基本上是一樣的－─他們都有情緒上與智識上的染污需要被淨化－─而兩者之間的差異只是程度上的差別；但從金剛乘的角度來看，男性與女性的心智之間存在著微細的差異。
That’s right. In the Vajrayana, especially in the Sakya and Nyingma traditions, there are dakinis who are considered to be spiritually more advanced than men. I’ve heard that at some levels in the Nyingma, you cannot get enlightened unless you have a spiritual consort. A Vajrayana monastic still has to keep all the Mahayana vows; it’s only at very high levels that a physical consort might be taken. Normally a physical consort isn’t used, instead a mental consort is visualised.
是的。在金剛乘，特別是薩迦派與寧瑪派傳承，都認為空行母在修道上的位階比男性更高。我聽說寧瑪派到某個修持次第，除非納受明妃，否則不能證悟。金剛乘的僧人依然必須持守所有的大乘戒律，只有在非常高階的修持才可能會納受實體明妃。通常也不會納受實體明妃，而是以觀想的心意明妃為代替。
Now let’s turn to everyday life. Modern women often feel an enormous conflict between wanting a husband and family, and having a career. Even once they have children, many women still feel they want to be independent, have a job, and become somebody in their own right, and are not content with being a wife and mother.
現在讓我們來談日常生活。現代女性經常在想要結婚生子和擁有職業生涯之間，感受到巨大的衝突。甚至當她們生了孩子後，許多女性仍覺得想要自主、工作，憑藉自己能力成為具有重要地位的人，而對身為妻子或母親並不滿意。
The first thing I’d like to say is that all western women are independent compared to women in the east. I think the conflict you mention depends on the individual’s mind. If you have a big heart, the heart of compassion, you can do anything. If you don’t have a big heart, although your mind might want to achieve many things, physically they won’t work out. The mind is very tricky, you know, it wants to do all kinds of things; the mind can think up goals which are far beyond the bounds of possibility. So if you expect too much of yourself you will never achieve anything; what you can manage personally, as an individual, depends on your mind.
首先我想要說的是：相較於東方女性，西方女性都較為自主。我想你所提及的衝突是取決於個人的意念。如果你有一顆寬廣的心、慈悲之心，就能做任何事。如果你的心不寬廣，儘管心中或許想要完成許多事，但實際上做不到。你知道，心是非常狡猾的，它想要做所有的事；心可以構想出遠遠大於可能的目標。所以如果你對自己期望過高，便會什麼都無法完成；身為個體，你能力所及的事情是哪些，端看自心。
I was a nun, then I married and had five children, but I didn’t plan it that way–even now I don’t make plans. Then suddenly, although I had never thought of it before, H.H. Sakya Trizin told me to teach, and so I did. For women who have a supportive husband it’s a little easier. My husband is very good–he is not jealous at all, whereas some husbands have a very jealous nature. I am not jealous of him either and we trust each other completely. This makes it easy for me to travel and teach, otherwise if my husband were a jealous person it would be quite difficult. He has many good qualities and supports me completely.
我曾出家為尼，而後結婚並擁有五個孩子，但我並未如此計畫──即便到現在，我還是沒有在做計畫。然後忽然有一天，儘管在那之前我從未想過，但是怙主 薩迦崔津法王要我開始教導佛法，於是我便照做了。對女性而言，如果丈夫支持自己，就會較容易些。我的丈夫非常好，他一點也不嫉妒，然而有些人的丈夫本性上很會嫉妒。我也不會嫉妒我的丈夫，我們完全互相信賴。這讓我的旅行與教學變得容易，否則若他會嫉妒的話，這一切就很難了。他有許多好的特質，也完全支持我。
I think that women who want both a career and a family have to find a balance and give equal time to each. It’s easier if your husband supports you, and more difficult if you both have a career, because then life becomes rather hectic. And remember that children don’t stay small for ever, they grow up and don’t always wait until they are 18 years old before they leave home.
我認為想要兼顧事業與家庭的女性，必須要找出平衡點，並給予兩方面相等的時間。如果丈夫支持，會容易些；如果雙方都有工作，就比較難，因為生活會變得非常忙碌。記住：小孩不會永遠都是小孩，他們會長大，而且不會總是等到十八歲才離開家。
Some women become anxious and feel they can’t manage, but if you really want to do it, you can. But always keep a balance. For example, I teach and I have a full-time job. I have to work because we bought a house and we have to keep up the mortgage. On top of that children are quite expensive–especially boy’s sports clothes! So I have a full-time job, teach part-time, and spend weekends with the children. As I am a Dharma practitioner, I also do my practice. Practice actually helps you to discipline yourself. A family, a career and everything else can be exhausting, and to fit it all in as well as your practice you might have to skip some sleep once in a while. At first it can be hard to get up early in the morning to practise because you’re not used to it, but by the second week it’s already a little better, and after a month you’ll find it’s much easier.
有些女性會變得焦慮，覺得自己無法勝任，但如果你真的想要做到，是可以的。不過總是需要保持一個平衡。舉例來說，在我教導佛法的同時，還有個全職工作。我必須工作；因為我們買了房子且必須持續償還貸款。除此之外，養育小孩是相當昂貴的──尤其是男孩的運動服！所以我有個全職工作，兼職教學，並在週末時間陪伴孩子。身為佛法修行者，我也有修持要做。修持其實能幫助你自律。家庭、工作與每件事都可能讓人精疲力盡，要把這些事都做好，之外還要修持，或許有時必須犧牲睡眠。剛開始，早起修持可能有困難，因為還沒習慣，但到了第二個禮拜就會好些，一個月後則會發現容易多了。
If you find you are too exhausted to do everything you have to do, you should watch your diet. Eat smaller quantities, eat less meat, and don’t drink alcohol. Drinking alcohol is bad for a religious practitioner, or for any human being come to that.
若發現自己過於疲累而無法做到每件必須做的事，就該檢視自己的飲食。吃得少量一點，少吃葷食，避免飲酒。對於宗教修行者或任何人來說，飲酒皆是不好的。
Parents may have started a spiritual practice and wish to bring their children up according to spiritual values, yet their practice may not be firmly established and their understanding may not be mature enough for them to do this well. What advice do you have?
父母或許開始進行修持，並希望培養小孩一些關於修持的價值觀，但自身修持卻可能尚未穩固建立，或者個人理解也尚未成熟到可以這麼做。您對此的建議是什麼？
Start with a very simple teaching and a very simple practice. Doing long practices or retreats is difficult if the children are too young, though if you are rich you can hire a baby-sitter! So wait until the children are older before committing yourself to intensive practice. You can bring the children along to simple practices, and they can learn something too. It will give them some understanding as to why their mother is part of this religion and they won’t think it’s so strange. But actually they can’t understand until they are four years old anyway. So, do a simple practice, not a strict one, and every so often do it with your children.
那就從非常簡單的教導與練習開始。即使你有錢並能雇用保母，但如果孩子還太小，要做長時間修持或閉關就有困難！因此要等孩子再大一點，才能投入密集的修持。你可以帶著孩子一起進行簡單的修持，並讓他們也能學習。這會讓他們了解自己的母親何以會屬於某個宗教，而不會覺得奇怪。但事實上，無論如何，他們在四歲前都不會懂的。所以，要做簡單的修持，而非嚴謹的那種，並經常和孩子一起做。
I have heard some teachers say that having children can in itself be a distraction from spiritual practice.
我聽到有些上師表示，有了小孩之後，可能會使修持分心。
When you look at the world, you will realise that whether you have a child or not, there are plenty of distractions. You may have to start with a simple practice and wait until your child is older before doing longer retreats, but the important thing is to have the aspiration to follow the spiritual path, and to be dedicated to it from the beginning. Then, somehow, you will be able to do it. However if you just have a vague wish that it will happen, without really pursuing it, then of course nothing will happen.
看看這世界，你會了解到不管是否有小孩，總有許多讓人分心的事物。在進行長期閉關前，可能必須從簡單的修持開始，直到小孩再大一點才能做，但重要的是要發願遵循修持之道，並在一開始時就致力於此。之後，總有機會能做到。然而，若對此事只是帶著不清不楚的希望而未真正加以追求，當然什麼都不會發生。
Buddha taught that we should regard all beings as equal. As you know, modern women demand equality with men usually in terms of jobs, income, social status, decision making and so on. How do you view the way we manifest our basic equality with men?
佛陀教導我們應該視一切眾生皆平等。如您所知，現代女性在工作、收入、社會地位、決策等等方面，都要求與男性平等。您如何看待我們展現與男性基本平等的方式？
The equality you are talking about is samsaric equality. In the Dharma it is said that women have eight virtues or qualities:
你所提到的平等是輪迴中的平等。在佛法上，據說女性有八種善德或特質：
· not to be under the sway of desire;
不受慾望影響
· the ability to treat all beings equally and without jealousy, as you would your own children;
有能力對待一切眾生如同對待自己的孩子一樣，而不帶嫉妒
· to have sympathy and motherly kindness; not to chatter;
具有憐憫與母親的慈愛，而不叨絮數落
· to speak the truth;
說真話
· to have few wrong views;
邪見少
· to have appropriate intelligence;
有合宜的智識
· and to bear fine children.
能養育出好孩子
These qualities don’t come so easily to men. But men are better able to keep things to themselves, this is one of their qualities. For example, if a man is told something in confidence he won’t feel compelled to speak about it with others, whereas women tend to want to share it.
這些特質對男性來說並不容易看到。但男性倒是有個特質，較能把事情放在心裡而不張揚。舉例來說，如果有人私下告知某男性某件事．他不會覺得有必要把它說出來，但是女性往往會想要分享。
Western women have been brought up very differently to Eastern women, and as you said are much more independent. Perhaps as a result of this, some find it difficult to relate to traditional practices such as devotion. How can we relate to such practices and how could we adapt them so they fit the way we are?
相較於東方女性，西方女性的養育背景非常不同，也如您所說的自主得多。或許正因如此，有些人便覺得自己不易融入虔敬心等這類傳統修持。我們該如何融入這類修持，又該如何調整修持本身而使其符合我們的狀態？
I think it’s important to remember that there are different kinds of teacher, and also that you go through different stages in your spiritual life. When you take spiritual vows and precepts in the Mahayana, you regard the master as a teacher and guide, but when you enter the path of Vajrayana it’s essential to realise that there is much more involved. The Vajrayana master is not simply a teacher, or a person, but is seen to be none other than the true presence of Buddha himself. So as we find ourselves at different stages along the path, we have different needs and accordingly follow different requirements.
我認為重要的是，要記得老師有不同的種類，而且在修行生活上會經歷不同的階段。在大乘佛教中領受修持的誓言和戒律時，要視上師為老師和指導，但在進入金剛乘之道後，則有必要了解這其中將涉及更多更多的事情。金剛乘的上師不僅是老師或個人，而是被視為佛陀的真實顯現。所以當我們在修道上處於不同階段時，就有不同的需求，並應依此而遵循不同的要求。
What is required, above all, is a measure of responsibility for oneself in order to begin the spiritual path in the first place. You can study some of the important texts, such as the Fifty Stanzas on the Spiritual Teacher by Arya Shura, which explain how to relate to a teacher, but long before you enter the path and accept a teacher as your teacher, and long before you learn to develop devotion, you have to think very carefully about whether or not you want to enter the path at all. Nobody is asking you to do it or indeed not to do it; it is up to each and every individual to decide where their interest lies and where they wish to put their effort. If you find that spiritual practice is good for you, then examine very carefully what it entails, and only after that should you decide whether or not to enter the path.
首先，為了開始修道，就需要有一份評判個人責任的標準。你可以學習一些重要的典籍，例如馬鳴（聖勇）菩薩所造的《事師五十頌》，它闡釋了如何親近一位老師；但是，早在進入修道並接受某人成為老師之前、早在學習如何培養虔敬心之前，就必須非常仔細地思考是否真心想要進入修道。沒有誰要求你做或不做，這是個人的決定，端看自己的意樂所在以及想要於何處投注心力。如果你發現修持對自己有幫助，那就要相當謹慎地檢視它所包含的範圍，之後才決定是否要進入修道。
Once you have entered the path, especially in the Vajrayana, you must look for a teacher who is worthy of your devotion and respect, and having decided to follow the direction and teaching of a master, then you must actually focus on this in a dedicated way, otherwise you will never accomplish the path.
一旦進入修道，特別是在金剛乘，就必須尋找一位值得待以虔敬和尊敬的老師，並於決定遵循這位上師的指引和教授之後，必須盡心盡力地真正專注於此，否則將無法完成這條修道。
It is important to remember that your interest in a teacher, your dedication to a teacher, and the state of mind in which you feel pleased with a certain teacher, should not be confused with similar experiences in relationships with your parents, friends or relatives. The nature of the teacher-student relationship is completely different. Normal human relationships are based on a certain attachment and desire, whereas the relationship between student and teacher should be free of attachment, desire and craving. That’s very important. You should learn to cultivate that. If you do, then whatever devotion you develop will be meaningful, but if you don’t, and have lots of thoughts about your teacher, then it will be hard to accomplish anything at all. So if you take the initiative of thoroughly examining the path and the teacher at the outset, this will help you develop a healthy and beneficial relationship with your teacher.
重要的是，要記住，你對某位上師的關注、虔敬和愉悅的感受，皆不應與你和父母、親朋好友等關係的類似經驗混淆。師徒關係的本質是截然不同的。一般人的關係是基於某種貪執與慾望，然而師徒關係則應離於貪執、慾望與渴求。這很重要。你應該學著依此培養。如果做得到，那麼你所生起的虔敬心就會變得有意義；如果做不到，反而對自己的上師有許多看法，則難以完成任何事情。因此，如果一開始就主動徹底地檢視這條修道與上師，將有助於你和上師之間發展出健全有益的關係。
Heart Advice
心要建言
· Whether you are a man or a woman, you should always keep the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha (the Triple Refuge of Buddhism) in mind. In this way, you will progress throughout your daily life.
無論你是男性還是女性，心中應該總是謹記著佛、法、僧（佛教的三皈依）。如此，便能於日常生活中有所進步。
· At the same time, try to learn patience in everyday life. Patience makes everything much smoother.
同時，試著在每日生活中學習安忍。安忍能讓事情都變得更順利。
· When your mind is calm, other people are more relaxed.
當自心平穩寧靜，其他人就會比較放鬆。
· If someone else makes a mistake, we are all likely to blow up. Instead, remember that everyone makes mistakes, and that you can make mistakes too, because you are only human.
某人犯錯時，我們可能都會勃然大怒。與此相反的是，要記住：人人都會犯錯，自己也會犯錯，因為我們都只是人。
· Always be kind to everyone, in every way you can, physically and mentally.
盡己所能，在行動和心意上，總是對人和善。
· Whatever you do, it is your motivation that really counts. Without good motivation, even if you do things that are generally considered to be ‘good’ they won’t be very beneficial because your motivation is not as good as your action appears to be. So for example, smacking or scolding a naughty child, because nothing else works, but with the good motivation of wanting the child to have a better life, will actually help him. However if you speak or act out of anger or hatred, then it won’t benefit the child at all. It all comes down to motivation: that’s something you should never forget.
無論所做何事，動機（發心）才是最重要的。若無良好動機，即便所做的事屬於一般認為的好事，由於動機本身與行為表現並不一致，也不會帶來多少利益。因此，舉例而言，在無計可施的情況下摑打或責罵頑皮的小孩，若同時懷著良善的動機，希望小孩能有較好的生活，便能實際幫助到他。然而，若是出於憤怒或怨懟而說話或行動，則對孩子一點幫助都沒有。一切都取決於動機，這是你所不應忘記的。
Interview by Dominique Side
採訪者 Dominique Side
~ 普賢法譯小組Linda初譯於2019/6/17佛陀入胎、成道及涅槃三重殊勝吉祥日（藏曆4/15）比利時Ogyen Kunzang Chöling處；Sophie校對 / Serena完稿於2020/6/8薩嘎達瓦觀音菩薩日。願善妙增長、災禍平息！
